tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20184070.post8882637269158321853..comments2024-01-11T10:58:30.769-05:00Comments on Jesus community: reading the Bible as storyTed M. Gossardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10580691315315271791noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20184070.post-47808414101462774022008-11-20T06:52:00.000-05:002008-11-20T06:52:00.000-05:00Triston,Yes, grammatically I guess that could go e...Triston,<BR/>Yes, grammatically I guess that could go either way: the work of God, or the work of humans required by God. I certainly agree with you theologically that faith is not a work. But in the context as Jesus was using it, language is not always framed in a way that is concerned about theological precision in words chosen. Jesus was making a point. Maybe he was saying something like: This is the "work" you must do, simply believe.<BR/><BR/>That statement would put a question mark on the need for works at all, or it could. But just my thinking here for now, without looking at the Greek or what evangelical scholars say on it.Ted M. Gossardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02692748462514869882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20184070.post-3135766919388957102008-11-20T00:24:00.000-05:002008-11-20T00:24:00.000-05:00Ted, does Jesus call faith a work in this passage?...Ted, does Jesus call faith a work in this passage?:<BR/><BR/>"Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” (John 6:28-29)<BR/><BR/>I think this passage could only be interpreted two ways: Either Jesus is saying faith is a work, or he is staying faith is God's work in our life. In other words, either faith is a work we do or faith is a work God does in us. Of course, I believe God gives us faith, so this passages doesn't give me trouble, but how would you understand it?Litl-Lutherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09790787494599438994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20184070.post-63781596716196073622008-11-18T03:33:00.000-05:002008-11-18T03:33:00.000-05:00Thanks, Triston.I don't see the possibility of apo...Thanks, Triston.<BR/><BR/>I don't see the possibility of apostasy as a matter of works, but as a matter of faith. Leaving God's grace behind so that we no longer have faith, or our faith dies. Something like that. Not because I no longer DO such and such.Ted M. Gossardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10580691315315271791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20184070.post-77230847795070729912008-11-18T01:10:00.000-05:002008-11-18T01:10:00.000-05:00Thanks Ted,I don't necessarily agree with Spurgeon...Thanks Ted,<BR/>I don't necessarily agree with Spurgeon's harsh language about those who think genuine believers can be lost, but I do agree with him that if one of God's people in Christ (who born again by God’s Spirit, adopted as God's son, justified by Christ, etc.) can be lost, then that really raises doubt that any genuine believer can have lasting assurance. And it also raises questions on what saves us. I know you will agree that from beginning to end in Scripture God alone is our Savior and that our salvation is not based on our works, yet if we can be lost because of our works (i.e. sin, apostasy) then that would seem to conclude that our salvation IS dependent upon our works, which seems completely unbiblical to me. I’m not sure how you tackle this obstacle. At least it seems like a huge obstacle to me.Litl-Lutherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09790787494599438994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20184070.post-91165529840329748142008-11-17T21:19:00.000-05:002008-11-17T21:19:00.000-05:00Triston,For all practical purposes there's really ...Triston,<BR/>For all practical purposes there's really little difference between our positions.<BR/><BR/>A Calvinist holds that one must persevere to the end if there one of God's "elect" or else it's evident they are not.<BR/><BR/>It's all of grace, and grace underlies any movement toward God we make. <BR/><BR/>I simply disagree with Spurgeon because I think Scripture does not back what he says. I Corinthians 10 and the Old Testament, Hebrews 6, for starters. But assurance is real as we trust, as we by grace simply look to God or have any faith at all. And God works for our persevance, or to help us persevere and grow. It's the norm for any and all Christians to become "stablished" in the Lord.Ted M. Gossardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10580691315315271791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20184070.post-91603031492498321552008-11-17T08:54:00.000-05:002008-11-17T08:54:00.000-05:00I don't get the logic of your thought Ted: How is ...I don't get the logic of your thought Ted: How is it that "we can be assured of salvation- in the present and future" if "a true Christian can apostasize" and be lost? It seems to be that would exclude true assurance for the future for even true Christians. <BR/><BR/>How would you respond to Charles Spurgeon's take on this issue?<BR/><BR/>"If one dear saint of God had perished, so might all; if one of the covenant ones be lost, so may all be; and then there is no gospel promise true, but the Bible is a lie, and there is nothing in it worth my acceptance. I will be an infidel at once when I can believe that a saint of God can ever fall finally. If God hath loved me once, then He will love me for ever...."Litl-Lutherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09790787494599438994noreply@blogger.com